German early jets are outperformed by pretty much by everything at their br. It's strengths clearly outweighs it's burdens when the game is based around city/village structures. 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. There are many, many more ways in which Germany is claimed to suffer--these are just a few that I chose to address for this first post. I like Wallonia, I hate Kursk. The rest including pz iv and pz 3 is pretty balanced in my opinion. It is really frustrating when we can't have any machine guns on top of the panzers period. One thing to mention is that german 6.7 is actually really good against soviet 6.7, it's the stabilized brit APDS ATGM throwers and impenetrable american T__ heavy tanks that really hurt. But like I've said, this is not an issue affecting only Germany. Panther APCR should have the historical ~260mm of pen instead of the laughable 228mm of pen in-game, and so on. His portfolio includes five books and several hundred historical articles.". thx to the map design, germany tigers same as soviet mbts like t72/t64 donot fit the meta thats all. I lately used my FW190 D13 with one 500kg bomb as Fighter/Ground Attacker. For Centurion Mk.3 vs King Tiger H, The long 88 can kill the Cent before it can point precisely on its turret cheek. The issue is that T__ are better than every heavy in game all the way up until the IS-3, and their BR should reflect that. He will retreat and find a way around you. Russians are a mixed bag but to Kill an IS6 or IS3 is usually a combination of skill and luck as they are mostly immune to the long 88. Eh, the significance of this is overstated. I've had heat go through and kill the guy that fired the round but never not blocked the shot. warrior412, February 10, 2020 in General & Upcoming. And no matter what is the br setting whatever times you get a new vehicle even at 8.7 you have to start the whole thing again. .50 CALs are overpreforming by a mile. Just an endemic lack of knowledge of what assets are available to the Germans, 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. Ugh. Real German problem here---> East Germany, "Where's our tank? But in that case the T95 is also a good flanker. That is impossible, you need somewhat of a team. Justifications for War and Peace in the Scriptures of the Abrahamic Religions. And the T30 which has a 30 second reload on a 200mm round penetration is sad to say the least and in my opinion off that its worthy if 6.3 due to that fact but thats a different discussion. Its a fine argument, it fits into the"why would I drive over there to shoot them from 10 feet awaywhen I can sit here 1000+ meters away and kill them?" So don't play into his game, your typical player basereallygets a kick out of surprises. Hard cover will always be superior to armor in WT. - East Germany suffers! Now, lets address the imagined problems of Germany so that the real ones can be identified and addressed! The Tiger II's gun is stabilized but it doesn't bounce. As for the Bf 110G, it is superb--it's only fault is that it's ranked as a Tier II rather than a Tier III. Yes, but just pointing out that "Japanese bias" has been used before. The armor is nowhere never Tiger II H level. Thank you for your attention and have a nice day! Of course it does, but this is not the argument here. Armor is lolpened by DM33 and higher. Which isn't as many as the P-47 you still get access to the same 1,000 pounder and 500 pounder it gets just not at once. The T28 is indeed scumy, not because its to op but because its almost the same tank as the T95 but at a lower br also the side armor thing matters a lot, this is a slow tank, THE slowest tank actually, the panther and tiger have enough speed to compansate for it unlike the HUGE top speed of 13 km/h that the T28. Its an endless cycle so you better get used to it. I think it's important to call out that there are a lot of different aspects to mobility. Only if you let him, if you did the smart thing you will set the rules of engagement and battleground long before they even considered such a thing. I am obviously a bit salty though, I've played basically every nation in WT except the USA so maybe I'm a bit biased. I think a topic you missed is also CAS. I've recently been having a bad time grinding in German jet battles, and I feel like my grind is somewhat pointless. In real life, German cats had a more advanced system/concept known as regenerative steering, this is vastly more energy efficient and especially useful for these heavy late wartanks, and other tanks after the war. while proclaiming yourself in some sort of 'neutral good' position. It should be 6.7 or 7.0 at best. I tested you 50 cal theory and it can be done but it takes so many rounds and reloads its not an arguing point at all. But the issue is most players have these vehicles they weren't exclusive or timed events. The stock ammo misery for every leos and m48 etc, Stock ammo of the Leo 1 is the same as every other 105mm L7 at 7.7. Still more enjoyable than japanese start off. He usually has like 5 different options. What? Other options like FW's with 1000kg bomb drops are just too bad in a fighter role, as well as the Me 262 Pulkzerstrer. It is a medium tank like the Panther II or T-44-100. Just an observation maybe its just me. What about T95? It bounces off and does little or no damage when pens. They can both all go through the Centurion mantlet with ease. In a case of 1535,9 it was established that an individual who suffered particular damage over and above that inflicted upon the general population could maintain a separate action for damages. A T34 hull down has 200-300mm of frontal protection, 150mm-200mm of side protection, and 200mm of rear protection. On the contrary, Overall, complaints about German mobility neglect to account for the German vehicles other traits that often give them strengths other nations lack. This is of course a burden if you're in a CQC situation where the APDS will easily pen your frontal armor. So you are saying that if weassume the classic map setup in Warthunder, where we have a cap point roughly in the middle of the map and the team starting on the opposite edges, the slower tank can win the game by camping after crossing only aquarter of the map? I invite others to list other claims of alleged German suffering so that those can be talked about. How is this true for any vehicles? As a mainly (90% of battles or more) German player I have to debunk one thing. Or this amazing times when you play the tractor simulator trying to get you slow vehicle to this surprising spot which takes you forever, and hoping that noone shoots or bombs you on the way there. 'German players' are not somehomogenous group, clearly people play different nations. Japan's OP type 90 has been given an equal. Those T-Heavies are redicoulus. You can use it, for the Tiger I lovers the way to go. I invite others to list other claims of alleged German suffering so that those can be talked about. He can easily continue flank and pen King Tigers from the side. Armor. Example, an M18 is freaking fast compared to a Panther or any other German Tank of that tier. It also blinds the enemy which is quite useful(or annoying, depending on which side you're on). Pretty unfair that almost all US tanks have those AA HMGs. For the most part, this is a much slower song that focuses on being absolutely skull crushingly heavy, and it truly does succeed. And here comes the issue with uptiers. Because they know that there will be most probably a trap when they arrive at the cap point. I will keep the scope of this topic to relate to BRs 1.0 to 7.0 in RB, with the primary emphasis being on 4.X-5.X. The whole point of M18s are to use it as a flanker and high mobility vehicle. What's clear is how later German vehicles are designed to deal with tanks at long range, making use of frontal armor, penetreation and RoF. India. Uptiers are a pervasive issue for every nation at one point or another, with the severity of this problem varying widely. But only at long range. Nope you leave them to their own meansor use them as bait if you want to be a jerk about it. The Brit needs 2-3 good hits to kill the KT, while the KT just takes one hit to blow the Cent up with huge APHE. This is why nobody takes anyone who believes in tygor syndrom seriously. Useful on certain maps. You can flank it and still fail to pen with many of the guns at this BR. None of this is specific to Germany or the Americans mind you. Has 7.1 second reload (slower than 6.7s of the 105 L7 guns), -6 gun depression, and only 17.3 deg/sec traverse, so it doesn't fit gun handling meta. And the overwhelming sense of hopelessness when the enemy team finds outhowithappened, that moment alone is to die for. While German vehicles cannot quite match others vehicles in a drag race, this does not mean German vehicles are bad. The Panther, by contrast, is reasonably quick for a medium tank, retains decent armor and is vastly better armed. But that doesn't change the fact that the tank have bad reverse speeds,, fit in with all the other bad aspects of the Panther in this game, like bad low speed movement due to the missing regenerative steering. ..and I'm not talking about the vehicles, they're OK-ish. Allied CAS is absolutely by far and away superior, only the 37mm armed Bf-110G is superior to allied cas, it's actually really good. 1. It's scary and you die whichever you run into. Germany has a p-47 just like the allies? It's obvious which has the better hull where as its obvious who has the better turret. You make it sound like the T series doesn't have to aim for weak points also. And since most Panther drivers know that, they usually just camp. I am a guy who plays all nation with Germany being my single most played nation. I am sure that these questions are on many peoples' minds and you are asked at least some of these questions often. Those things can shrug off even the 10.5 in close combat. In this video, I and a couple of friends play one of the best lineups in the game.#warthunder #germany #friends For anyone who has ever played War Thunder and certainly for those who have perused the forums, the line Germany suffers! is probably something youve heard before. In a standard WT match, do I try to command people using the chat to go to certain positions which they won't do? True, I had the T-44 in mind when I made that post though. 1 Description 2 General info 2.1 Survivability and armour 2.2 Mobility 2.3 Modifications and economy 3 Armaments 3.1 Main armament 3.1.1 Ammunition 3.1.2 Ammo racks 3.2 Machine guns 4 Usage in battles 4.1 Pros and cons 5 History 6 Media 7 See also 8 External links Description "situational" any map with a rock, wall, or building allows you to take advantage of the stabilizer. Mobility - and this is actually the main point. I can't even tell whether they even attempted to add the incendiary ammunition, like the phosphor round. If it's perfectly fine as a comparison, then why is CQC fighting the rulewhen GJ is designing maps,while we clearly can make it a more interesting battle if every nation can face their strengths and shortcomings on the battlefield. Otherwise we can also assume incompetent Panther players who just drive on the highest hill and stand in the open hoping that noone sees them and try to snipe enemies. What makes teams such an acute problem? FInally we can do much more than to just get flanked. Just an endemic lack of knowledge of what assets are available to the Germans. That's your personal preference. Eh, you can get the same effect with having a slow vehicle suddenly appear where no one expects it at a particular time, it also brings a more shock and awe effect as its victims try to fathem what they are looking at and how it gotthere, thegood times to be had Oh and by the way, many people do drive BT5s and M18 on high tiers because they are freaking fast and their guns can pen flanks of more modern tanks. Not sure why, maybe it's a new bug or there's a spall shield I'm unaware of, but it's really annoying. Powered by Invision Community. Turret is 200mm at it's weakest and will bounce if the enemy angles or is at long range. Or a Jagdtiger? Sidenote: chuckling at all the silly "confused" reactions haters are giving. I mean this thing has a chance to kill KT frontally by spamming around the turret ring and it can take out the gun barrel within 2-3 shots.When the M41 of a German player is destroyed, well you can go panther which is not the best when it comes to maneuvering, or perhaps a puma which can get shredded by .50 CAL. Interesting, unless you are talking about the driving comfort of the crew I thought we had a couple of long discussions on here where you said main gun bounciness compared to stabilized tanks like the Sherman series are negligible. for example to prove what i said u can see that with panther A br reduce to 5.7 germany teams improved a lot, because panthers have much better gun handling than tigers. Maps in air battles are sometimes given to br.s that have no way of properly using them (I hear top jets get tiny maps sometimes) and low speed props get huge maps sometimes (even in jets some of the maps make no sense, why would I fly an Me262 for ten minutes to stress out about my 2 sec window to hit an a.i. I wouldn't say its off topic at all, map friendly brawling options fallsintocategory's the suffering community thinks Germany needs and in the upper low MBT department East Germany is suffering as the tanks are missingaltogetherlike some other nationsvehiclesand that right there is the very definition of "Suffering". The majority of the 7.92 German ammunition types go seemingly unused in the game, especially all the high velocity variants of the bullets. Allied tanks have a thinner top armor in general than the German and Soviet tanks, which makes a high pen round not a necessary feature to get kills from the air. Think a bit ahead. No, the good players, because we need to play with this.. other 90% of the other players, that only got enough braincells to press W. Just carry, its what I do. He just needs to find the right way to flank you. While an M18s speed might allow it to get to a point a few moments before a Panther would, the M18s lack of armor and less capable cannon burden it if something like a Panther arrives shortly thereafter. I haven't shared your issues i go through a T series and it dies normally and I'm more prone to freak out if a IS-6 rolls over a hill than a T series. And yes theoretically the bigger and slower tank could try the same tactic, just that it would take him much longer to react, he would be easiert to spot and aim at, and you would give the enemy more time to shoot at you when you cross open terrain. While mobility has it's place, it's only one of the triad of armament, armor and mobility. Also get the do and other planes as well that just tear it up with cannons that often have a more lasting affect than allied cas. Hell even the FV4202 has a strong enough turret to confidently bounce long 75s and russian guns. Thats why you will often see lack of initiative and decisiveness on German teams. I just read this post and simply had to react because you draw all the wrong conclusions. While an M18s speed might allow it to get to a point a few moments before a Panther would, the M18s lack of armor and less capable cannon burden it if something like a Panther arrives shortly thereafter. Be always aware of this. Don't know maybe deserve a new play again. Same procedure as with Panthers. Also, most capture points are arranged such to allow for substantial firing work into/out of them from such ranges. that I won't be able to catch if I miss (only to in best case scenario get about 2k sl from the kill)? The best editions of doctor oz supplement pills for ed Florus are Duker s, 2 vols. Noone does the same with panthers. I am sure that these questions are on many peoples' minds and you are asked at least some of these questions often. but in a game where you play the same maps over and over again and know all the ways hideouts. That's a big if there, an M18 still isn't fast enough to out run a gun so its unlikely for them to survive long enough to retreat out of an ambushand flank you, heck even half of them that do make it out get blown up latertrying to flank you as they may become careless with hatred. . Most american team comps I see are at least 80% heavy tanks but they get away with it because their heavies can actually reliably bounce shots. All in all, these things boil down to the sort of trade offs that are to be expected. I've been playing the Su-100P lately (pretty underrated, but could still use a lower BR to match the regular Su-100) and it baffles me how many pumas I am seeing from 5.7-7.7. Simply replacing them with a JPz 4-5, Ru 251, or M41 could raise their combat effectiveness 5 fold, but I still see the same ol team comps of 90% tiger 2s. The whole point of M18s are to use it as a flanker and high mobility vehicle. In which I have to say no, it's not ONLY the Germans that have bad reverse speeds. The complaint is one thats pretty common for all nations--uptiers. And its mo different than tiger 2 players shaking their turret to get a bounce. He can get to cap first and setup an ambush. Oh and by the way, many people do drive BT5s and M18 on high tiers because they are freaking fast and their guns can pen flanks of more modern tanks. Thats because the Germans don't have more modern light tanks in the game. I'll have to talk about CAS soon I suppose. The first two points can be resolved by reforming the German tree to not have the jumps that it has and by requiring players to unlock more vehicles to progress to such higher BRs (as other nations have). Scriptures from many world religions, science facts, safety & reminder tips, cuisine, sports, books, art, music, movies, TV. Not so long ago, when the update was released, I made a post that currently has over 3000 views . Even so, better reverse speed on competing tanks does not in itself put those competing tanks (like M18s), as they can have drawbacks of their own. Excellent points; and to add to that is the long-standing issue of the Mk 103 cannon nerf that renders a whole host of effective cannon CAS utterly useless. An uptier will barely affect the performance of an M18. Sit in cover, spot an enemy in third person, pop out, shoot and repeat. France truly suffers, the major trees offer too much, France needs more! Armor profile is meh also and they are abit slower than the tiger 2s surprisingly. The ATGMs aren't common place but considering germany doesn't get SS.11s until 7.7 it does show the extreme technology advantage the brits have. Recently I got the MiG 19s and its just been soul draining bad because off missile spamming and almost constant uptears, so I try to go back to the MiG 15 and G.91 but they experience a similar problem. According to this complaint, Germany's mobility is insufficient to be competitive in RB GFs, with the greatest concentration of this complaint being focused on the 5.X range. Germany's problem,at least when it comes to ww2 vehicles, is lack of brawling vehicles past 5.7. No, it really isn't. I'll add as a supposition (GE doesn't share the data) that Germany is probably the first nation people pick up to start. Isn't it a bit dishonest to completely "forget" to bring out the more negative aspects of the panther? I'd recommend not making part of the argument then to begin with, The argument is that a more mobile tank has the better "tools", traits call it however you want to exploit this knowledge. Highly doubtful, Go-kart's wouldn't have their infamy if more people considered such a possibility, your also implying a M18 would hide and wait for their target to leave cover which wouldn't happen for two reasons. Which means all you need to do is spot him first, then he's basically done for. Fires, backs up to cover from return fire etc, flanks if need be. Pointing it down doesn't do anything as I've found. Germany continues to suffer in War Thunder! The only situation where the Panther would in a clear advantage is a plain map where the M18 has no chance for covered approach. Are there plans to restructure the the air br system or decomress the br. I've whacked Leopards with my SU-5-1 but didn't have much to do with the vehicles. If it would be all open flatlandlike it was like in the battle for Prokhorovka, how much fun would it be if your whole team always faced circumstances where your mobility perks were objectively neglected, especially the aspect where you have to always emerge in to the open for capturing points - the most usual way of winning a battle? Again as stated before in other threads it is an option it is not viable in most instances as you typically just die. This is a major drawback and makes this tank so special. Thats because the Germans don't have more modern light tanks in the game. The funny part is that you say thatbut you give absolutely no reasonfor why you saythat. Puma 50mm Panzergranate has pretty low post pen damage on higher tier tanks. interactions? To believe that mobility is the only thing matters is to ignore almost everything that matters in a match. At 6.7 the US T series are much more survivable when it comes to being hit. Top tier meta is good survivability, mobility, and gun handling, as armor doesn't matter with laser rangefinders and high velocity APFSDS along with lots of CQB maps making weakspots easily hit. Born Lucile Randon on 11 February 1904 in Ales, the world's oldest person. Isn't it a bit dishonest to completely "forget" to bring out the more negative aspects of the panther? Join the Discord Here: https://discord.gg/cgctjTR5hjHope you all enjoy this video/short from an interesting moment in-game! People like to complain about the cause being UK 6.7, but tanks like the Panther II have almost double the games than any of the UK tanks. Only part of Germany that suffers is really top tier air. With a fast tank it is easier to get to places and to take advantageous positions. When I review the player profiles of those in the matches I am in, I commonly find such single nation players are the ones who struggle the most. If they're not interested in moving the follow up question should be why they don't when in German vehicles. Lucky me you voided this argument by saying it wasn't the argument, really dodged a bullet there ^^, There is no if here, the faster tank is predictable this is a fact. I would just shoot breech, then driver/engine, and then if whatever I was shooting was still alive I would just wittle down it's last crew with the excellent reload and lolpen APDS. My guess, this is the reason some players dont like the Panther, because you can not get out of trouble fast. encyclopedia. In that experience, I have found that German vehicles mobility is adequate and generally competitive with these peers--despite all of the derisive talk you hear otherwise. FRENCH AVIATION TREE IS A JOKE! so german jets are not useless compared to their opponents? is getting boosted taking them out requires specific loadouts and concentration, which makes the CAS player very susceptible for enemy fighters, this is further exacerbated by the poor balance among the nations at different br.s. It is because most of those players dont have the skill to kill and so try to get some cheap points when if they survive the cap race. Forming a wide line and covering each other. If you don't. Frontally there are no easy weakspots. However there comes the real germany suffers thing. The Arado B-2 has a great flight model, very maneuverable and easy to pull up out of a dive attack. If we're going to go with just the general platitudes then it's kind of a boring discussion that you would clearly be winning if we don't take a deeper look at the issues with German mobility other than "keeping pace", whatever that means. The allegation is that because the Germans Tigers and Panthers cannot keep pace with the Americans M18s, the Russians T-34-85s and other like vehicles that the Germans simply cannot compete with these vehicles or the teams that use them. This by the way also the reason why you quite often see the SDKFZ 234, a BR 2,7 vehicle, in 6.7 matches. Grant was buried on 4 December 1995 at the cemetery opposite his mansion, with the funeral service held at St Peter and St Paul's Church, Hailsham, East Sussex. In general, German win rates are in the 40s even at their lowest and this means that they're near the balancing point (the 45-55% range, being within +/-5 of 50%). You have to angleit correctly to make it work. I don't have too much preference on maps as a matter of range. If we only knew the do black people have bigger penis rate at which the penis size men earth how to make your dick bigger review porn hentai penis growth is cooling we might calculate back to this time with some assurance of certainty, always, however, on the assumption average penis size when not erect that the earth is simply a hot body cooling like any other hot body such, say, as a red . The AR with no armor, lackluster speed, no guns, or perhaps the TA which can only do bomber hunting and perhaps a few light vehicles however with limited ammo and frail frame it will get eaten by .50 CAL You can check the loadout options, you either have to pick a fighter, bomber or an attacker, there are no multi task missile and bomb armed super props that can wreck havoc on the ground and then dominate the sky. So saying it does bad thing in a downtier goes whichever way you draw it. Those three qualities are what control the tank's ability. 20112022 Gaijin Games Kft. While the M18 can potentially be used for flanking regardless of tier--this is true of any vehicle--it is also a vehicle that can be wiped out even by lowly 1.0s. I am losing a little over half my team (if my team is made up of mainly germans, which it generally is, otherwise about a quarter leave) before the 3 minute . Plus there are only few maps thatfavor this strategy. Only switch to the 3rd auto gear if going down hills and on flat roads. Germany has so many vehicles that some are clunkers and others are very OP. 'German players' are not somehomogenous group, clearly people play different nations. He travelled over doctor oz supplement ed Greece and Arabia, and wrote a history of the doctor for gods, in which . He can just wait till you start to cap and go around you. Panther speedcross country on flat terrain is42km/h. Now the GER 6.7 lineup is missing a proper medium to counter some of the russian meds. Still a lot more intuitive. With no premiums in the medium br.s it is difficult to break even. The T-72 is mediocre in forward mobility, and has a painful -4kph reverse. - If it is a sufficiently big map he will just cap before you even get to see the cap point. And T topically blow up now if you go through the turret. yes in the real world and on paper, but in a game where you play the same maps over and over again and know all the ways hideouts. Neither Soviets, Brits nor Ger vehicles have them, beside some prems or some advanced sub-types. And that's just fighting american 6.7 with other 6.7s good luck in 5.7 vehicles when you get uptiered, lol. Well you know what they say, the turtle always wins. #warthunder #shorthunder Hey! Sell, buy or trade War Thunder Items and Services here. I think that is what contributes in combination with what you mentioned for the low WR of Germans at the 5.7-6.7 BR range. buy panzer ii amp luchs the world war ii Theoretically you can kill a Leopard probably even with KV1, it is just much easier to do so by suddenly appearing at a place where no one expects you at that time and this works the best with a fast vehicle. You can do just as well with a vehicle that has different strengths if you use those strengths correctly. As if the game and the race to the capture point ends the moment they get to it and then it just sits there waiting for the Panther to roll in. T28 with 305mm of frontal armor at 6.3? Terrible survivability (carousel and 3 crew). 1. Of course it does, but this is not the argument here. -ifa potential target learns the maps thisscenario can be avoided, - If the slow tank manages to guess the attack strategy of the faster tank he can setup and counter-ambush, - if there is position that overlooks the entire cap point and if you can reach it fast enough (so should be on your half of the map), - if you take your time to get to the cap point and the M18 doesn't use this time to simply cap. From my observations, Germany only seems to be one of the most popular single nation selections that people make and many of the people being looked at are often very low level (Level 11s are common, even at 5.X).
QUALITY METAL STAMPING AND DEEP DRAWING SINCE 1919